16 MARCH 1940

NIRODBARAN: Sahana has given me two letters of yours to her explaining her experience of ascent and descent. She wants to know if the ascent and descent spoken of is the usual one or the major ascent and descent we heard about from you the other day.

SRI AUROBINDO (after reading both the letters): The first one is the usual ascent and descent. The consciousness has not got fixed above in the higher planes. It is the mental opening through the head and

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going up. The second one is the major ascent, rather the beginning. It has to become fixed above and the descent of the higher consciousness has to take place and transform the nature. Her later experiences are a continuation of this, I suppose.

NIRODBARAN: The first letter is dated 1931, the second 1936.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes; in between she had a lot of troubles and disturbances.

NIRODBARAN: Can't one have experiences during such troubles and disturbances?

SRI AUROBINDO: One can but they may not be of the higher ascent and descent because when such movements take place there comes a turn in the sadhana and these troubles and disturbances do not occur.

NIRODBARAN: She says that now she doesn't get disturbed.

SRI AUROBINDO: Then she has taken a decisive turn perhaps. In the struggle between the vital and the psychic, the vital may have submitted and the psychic may have triumphed. Unless the psychic is not only in front but also strongly established to take control of the other parts, the decisive descent does not occur. There are cases in which even without the psychic opening there may be the ascent. Then the course is a more chequered one. If the psychic is strong, the mind and the vital submit; but it doesn't mean that one has no more difficulties. There will still be difficulties but they are superficial, they don't disturb one so much, and there are no major difficulties in which one is on the point of giving up Yoga. The mind and vital then yield. That is what I call a decisive turn. When the psychic is strongly established the Divine Consciousness can descend and do the work.

SATYENDRA: Her first experience of this kind was in 1931. Nine years have passed. She still speaks of egoism.

SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, egoism! Even spiritual people have some sort of egoism. Egoism goes only after absolute Siddhi. Do you think nine years too long?

SATYENDRA: Life is too short. (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: A period of nine years is not too long for sadhana.

SATYENDRA (addressing Nirodbaran): What was Sahana's method?

NIRODBARAN: I don't know.

SRI AUROBINDO: Like everybody else she was making an effort and falling down.

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NIRODBARAN: She was having experiences in meditation before she came here.

SATYENDRA: I can't meditate.

SRI AUROBINDO: Meditation is a great help because you can get into the inner being and work on the other parts. Not that the work can't be done from the surface, but it is more difficult. That is why people lay stress on meditation.

SATYENDRA: I also had a few experiences. One of ascent, as I have told you. Another of death. I knew that my breathing was going to stop and I felt that I was going to die, while my consciousness was above the head in a sort of an egg-shell.

SRI AUROBINDO : That is not death. It is the rise of consciousness from the body.

SATYENDRA: I had also the experience of Light above the head.

SRI AUROBINDO : The Light has to come down. Then the vital troubles will disappear.

SATYENDRA: The difficulty is that I am still not settled here. Others have accepted this path as their own. I have a great desire for Moksha.

SRI AUROBINDO: In spite other experiences Sahana was also on the point of going away about two years ago.

SATYENDRA: Of course I didn't have such acute crises.

EVENING

SRI AUROBINDO: About Indumati I may say that Purna "God-meeting" is possible by Purna devotion, full self-giving, so that nothing else matters to her, although she can get guidance from and communication with Krishna without that.

SATYENDRA: She seems to be a Vaishnavite.

SRI AUROBINDO: How?

SATYENDRA: She speaks of Goloka darshan.

SRI AUROBINDO: How does one get it?

SATYENDRA: I don't know.

SRI AUROBINDO: By intensity of devotion, isn't that so?

SATYENDRA: She may be holding Mirabai before her as an example.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, Mirabai had the intensity of love.

CHAMPAKLAL: Is there anything like Goloka? Is it real?

SRI AUROBINDO: It is real but it depends on how one sees it.

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PURANI (showing a book by Laurence Binyon): Binyon praises Chinese art and says about Indian art that its subject matter appeals indirectly, not through the lines and moods of the painting itself, while Chinese art is synthetic.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is not true. I don't agree. Western critics call Indian subject matter conceptual, by which they mean intellectual. Take for instance these two Javanese figures.¹ Javanese art is practically Indian. They express very clearly the attitude of devotion and prayer through the lines and moods of the figures. No doubt, if one paints a man in an attitude of prayer without conveying any such feeling, it is different. Europeans like Chinese art the best among the Eastern arts.

PURANI: He says that in Chinese art there is the expression of the Spirit in Nature.

SRI AUROBINDO: Europeans have no clear idea of the Spirit and the spiritual. What Binyon mentions is the expression of the Spirit of universal Nature and nothing truly spiritual. As I have said, Far Eastern art expresses the Spirit as Nature, as Prakrid, while Indian art expresses the Spirit as Self, the spiritual being, Purusha. That is too subtle for the European mind to understand.

17 MARCH 1940

There was a letter from an outside sadhak regarding his election affair. Nirodbaran read it to Sri Aurobindo.

NIRODBARAN: "You may not be interested in politics..."

PURANI: We are interested.

SRI AUROBINDO: We are very much interested though we don't take part in it.

NIRODBARAN: "The allegation of newspapers is not true that I voted against the release of political prisoners. I voted for it. Neither is it true that I sided with the Government against the censure motion by Congress."

SRI AUROBINDO: Why doesn't he contradict the allegation then? It is absurd to remain quiet when the papers are spreading false news.

¹Wood-carvings which stood on a table in Sri Aurobindo's room.

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NIRODBARAN : "I have spoken to my friends and other members about it."

SRI AUROBINDO: He may have spoken to them but he didn't speak to the papers.

Then the letter elucidated why he had taken part in politics, etc. On this there was no comment from Sri Aurobindo.

PURANI: You seem to have relaxed the rule that the disciples shouldn't take part in politics.

SRI AUROBINDO: It is meant for inmates, not for those who are outside. But there also, if they take part in politics, they shouldn't join any revolutionary activities, as that would bring trouble to the Ashram.

EVENING

DR. BECHARLAL: Can one get liberation with desire still present in the lower nature?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, why not? One can realise the Self and attain Moksha or liberation in spite of desires.

DR. BECHARLAL: Won't one have to take birth again because of the desires?

SRI AUROBINDO: No, the desires fall off with the death of the body.

CHAMPAKLAL: When one snores in meditation, does it mean that one is sleeping instead of meditating?

SRI AUROBINDO: One may be meditating. One's consciousness may have gone within—it is not quite Samadhi— while the body falls asleep.

CHAMPAKLAL: I ask because very often I have felt that I have gone somewhere and am feeling nice, calm and peaceful but when I wake up I myself find I was snoring or others tell me I was doing so.

SRI AUROBINDO: When you feel peace and calm it means you have gone within. But aren'tyou conscious of where you have gone?

CHAMPAKLAL: No, only a feeling of going very deep into a pleasant region. And this has been happening for many years. What is the further stage and how is one to get it?

SRI AUROBINDO: The further stage is to be conscious and there is no device for it. One has to aspire and to will in one's

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waking moments to be conscious. (Looking at Nirodbaran) You are wondering how they feel calm and peaceful?

NIRODBARAN: No, because you have already told me that first my physical crust has to go. (Laughter)

PURANI: In my case, when I dream, I am very conscious but just as I wake up I forget all about it. But if some clue remains, I can work it out and get back the full dream.

SRI AUROBINDO: One has to acquire the habit of keeping the mind quiet after waking. Then the memory comes back.

NIRODBARAN: X accosted me suddenly and said, "Do you know the cause of Sri Aurobindo's accident? It is due to our mistakes, our egoism."

SRI AUROBINDO: She means I broke my leg and took the sins of all of you upon my thigh?

SATYENDRA : That is the general belief. It seems that the Mother also said something to that effect.

PURANI : If this was said of Universal Nature, it would be more correct, perhaps. Of course we also come in there.

SATYENDRA (to Sri Aurobindo): What do you say, Sir?

SRI AUROBINDO: Even in the old Yogas there is such a belief. Some Yogi in the South told another, "If you take disciples, then you will have the difficulties of your disciples to take up, added to your own." Christ said that he took up the sins of the world.

NIRODBARAN: But the accident appears to have come as a blessing because, X says, everybody is now feeling a push, there is a tremendous progress.

SRI AUROBINDO: They couldn't feel the push without my breaking my thigh? (Laughter)

NIRODBARAN: X herself is flying.

SRI AUROBINDO: Flying where?

NIRODBARAN: She says she feels free now because of a great suffering she went through soon after the accident: her egoism seems to have become ripe and burst!

SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, an abscess? Does she actually say her egoism has disappeared?

NIRODBARAN: Yes. It has burst, she says.

SRI AUROBINDO: Burst in what sense? (Laughter)

PURANI : She seems to be trying to cure Y of his egoism. I told her that it would be a big job for her.

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SRI AUROBINDO: Too big an abscess, spread all over the body? (Laughter)

Champaklal again brought up the subject of snoring.

CHAMPAKLAL: Except for causing disturbance to others, does snoring harm one in any way?

SRI AUROBINDO: Harm? You mean, is it immoral? (Laughter) There is no harm; while the body sleeps, the inner being meditates. It does not mean this happens in all cases. All cases of snoring are not meditation.

CHAMPAKLAL: Why does one snore?

SRI AUROBINDO: You mean why does the physical body snore? For that you have to ask a doctor. Ask Nirod. Why should others get disturbed by snoring?

PURANI: One doesn't if one can get into the rhythm of the snoring. I disturb Nirod when he goes out of rhythm.

SRI AUROBINDO: You mean when he doesn't snore but snorts — and goes from mental into Overmind rhythm or from lyrical to epic rhythm? (Laughter)

18 MARCH 1940

PURANI : Hitler's sudden meeting with Mussolini and the postponement of Sumner Wells' return seem to suggest a peace move again from their side.

SRI AUROBINDO : Yes, but if the Allies sell out to Hitler, Hitler will only wait for an advantageous time to strike again.

PURANI: Have you heard of the prophecies of Leonard Blake? A Parsi who had come here has offered to present a copy of Blake's book if we are interested.

SRI AUROBINDO: You can ask for it. Buying won't be worth-while but if someone offers it we can accept.

SATYENDRA: Among Parsis there are no spiritual men. But the Parsis seem to be quite catholic: wherever they find anybody spiritual, they accept him, whether he is ajnani or a Bhakta. It is strange they themselves have nobody markedly spiritual.

PURANI: Haven't they got Meher Baba?

SATYENDRA: Oh yes, one example.

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SRI AUROBINDO: But this one example is considered the Saviour of the world! Zoroastrians claim to have had seers and magi among them. They ought to have some spiritual figures.

NIRODBARAN: Have you read of J. L. Banerji's death during the Congress election?

SRI AUROBINDO: I thought he had been long dead and I took this Banerji for a different person. Or has he risen from the dead to fight the election? At one time he was a Moderate and stood for compromises. Of course he changed many times. First he attacked me vigorously and then became a strong devotee of mine. Afterwards he turned a Moderate. Perhaps he has come to the Congress now.

NIRODBARAN: Now here are some letters sent by A from his friends. One new friend of his writes that he is very often dreaming about you and, if things go on like this, he will have to forsake his children and start for Pondicherry.

SATYENDRA: It is going to be like the Sannyasins.

NIRODBARAN: Why? People can come here with all their children.

SRI AUROBINDO: Bah!

SATYENDRA: Somebody said to me that you have no sympathy for Sannyasins. I replied that we are practically Sannyasins ourselves, leading a Sannyasin's life, though of course it may be a temporary phase, for our lifetime only, because you want a new creation, don't you?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but a new life has to be based on spiritual experience. I have dealt with that in The Life Divine.

SATYENDRA: The very fact that we have an Ashram means that we have to keep aloof from the world for a time. Else we could as well establish ourselves in the world.

SRI AUROBINDO (smiling): "Ashram" is only a conventional term. As I said, we can't start a new creation except on the basis of spiritual experience. The starting of a new life has been a strong idea among many people for a long time. Anukul Thakur, Radhashyam and Dayanand had all the same idea.

EVENING

NIRODBARAN: In the Amrita Bazar Patrika there is a report that Surendra Mohan Ghose is unanimously going to be chosen as the President of the new B.P.C.C.

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SRI AUROBINDO: I am rather surprised. Let me see the report.

NIRODBARAN: Suren Ghose seems suddenly to have come into prominence.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he was so disgusted with dishonesty and intrigue that he wanted to give up politics.

19 MARCH 1940

As usual, Nirodbaran was meditating during Sri Aurobindo's walk. He was in a sort of trance and so he did not know that the walking was over and the Mother had been waiting. After she left and Nirodbaran opened his eyes, Sri Aurobindo commented:

SRI AUROBINDO (smiling): Deep trance?

NIRODBARAN: Just at the last moment. But I don't know if it can really be called a trance: something was happening inside.

SRI AUROBINDO: It is a trance all the same: you know that you were somewhere but don't know where. That alone is not enough; you must know where you went.

NIRODBARAN: I tried again for intuition but as usual failed.

SATYENDRA (smiling): Nirod is trying the straight path through intuition.

NIRODBARAN: To Supermind?

SATYENDRA: Yes.

SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): I am afraid the straight path is the longest.

NIRODBARAN: Satyendra tells me that instead of trying for the Supermind I should try to realise the Self first. The other is a very long path. (Sri Aurobindo began to smile.)

SATYENDRA: I was just going to say that again. You are trying for intuition but you don't get it.

NIRODBARAN: But I get the trance.

SRI AUROBINDO: And it may lead to intuition.

NIRODBARAN: My trance is only for a short time.

SRI AUROBINDO: How do you know? In a trance one has no sense of time.

NIRODBARAN: Yes, but here I was quite awake and saw the time: 11.20 a.m., and I expected that you "would stop walking at any moment. Then suddenly I went off and woke up at 11.25.

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SATYENDRA: The word "trance" is rather vague; it doesn't convey the real sense.

SRI AUROBINDO: Why? In English that is the only word. "Trance" means the loss of outer consciousness and going within. One can't say all that every time. Of course, as with Samadhi, there are many kinds of trances.

NIRODBARAN: I read somewhere that a patient under chloroform was watching his own operation from above.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is the rising of the consciousness out of the body. In hypnotism the subjects can know all their experiences and under chloroform they can do the same. During fever one can have vital experiences.

NIRODBARAN: How? There is no loss of outer consciousness then.

SRI AUROBINDO: The non-physical centres get excited. We can use our favourite term, "physical crust", and say that it temporarily becomes thin and the centres just below it become active.

PURANI: The English writer Hilaire Belloc has said that Germany will make a strong attempt to break through the Maginot Line. Once it breaks through it, France will be vulnerable.

SRI AUROBINDO: It was German generals who were against any such attempt.

PURANI: But after breaking Poland so easily they have got confidence.

SRI AUROBINDO: But there was nothing to break in Poland. The Poles couldn't offer any resistance to speak of.

NIRODBARAN: Finland had some defence.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the Mannerheim Line, though nothing equal to the Maginot Line. The Russians could only make a dent.

20 MARCH 1940

PURANI: In Sweden public opinion seems to be in favour of Germany.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.

PURANI: That is why no help was given to Finland.

SRI AUROBINDO: Norway and Sweden have become pacific. Of course the Norwegians are not said to be particularly good

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fighters, though once the Norwegian Vikings went even up to Sicily. The Swedes are known to be good fighters, and in the earliest periods they were a great power; they ravaged the whole of Northern Europe.

EVENING

PURANI: The French Cabinet has resigned. But it seems Daladier will again be asked to form the Ministry.

SRI AUROBINDO : They passed a vote of confidence the other day.

PURANI: But this may have happened yesterday. Some three hundred members remained neutral. They seem to be dissatisfied with the war policy and also the dictatorial power of Daladier. Daladier refused to appoint new ministers.

SRI AUROBINDO: What do they expect in war-time? One has to be dictatorial.

PURANI: They also want a more vigorous action.

SRI AUROBINDO: What vigorous action? Attacking the Siegfried Line?

SATYENDRA: But how long can this go on? Sitting on the fence like this?

SRI AUROBINDO: What else can be done? It is the nature of this war. What is the use of breaking your heads against a stone wall?

SATYENDRA: That may be, but like this the war will prolong itself endlessly. England and France declared war and yet they are on the defensive.

SRI AUROBINDO: Do you mean to say that for that reason they should lead an invasion against the Siegfried Line? Already Germany has more men than the Allies. And if one million men are sacrificed to Hitler by trying to break the Siegfried Line, then the war is finished. There is no sense in that.

PURANI: Perhaps they are dissatisfied with the treatment of the Communists since the Government has put them in detention camps.

SRI AUROBINDO: Bah! What do they want then? To let them go free and spread a revolution behind the lines? They were plotting against France, taking orders from Stalin and trying to help Hitler. What else could be done to such enemies of the country? Allow them to betray France? The Socialists also agree to the Government

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policy. When Blum went to London he said that he would have done the same to the Communists—only in a different Way.

PURANI: Some people may be saying that Daladier is led too much by Chamberlain.

SRI AUROBINDO: If a quarrel starts between England and France, the war is done!

SATYENDRA: Every day they are spending six million pounds.

SRI AUROBINDO: That can't be helped. It was the same during the last war.

PURANI: The Allies did not want to prosecute a vigorous war by helping Finland. Only Sweden refused to allow passage to their troops.

SRI AUROBINDO : Yes, but the Labour Party was dead against war with Russia. Now they have published that they had kept one hundred thousand soldiers ready to send to Finland under the plea of "non-intervention" — a queer phrase invented by Mussolini.

NIRODBARAN: Sweden says England promised help too late.

SRI AUROBINDO : How can that be? Chamberlain has said that the soldiers were kept ready and they were to be asked for in May by Finland but Finland didn't call because of Scandinavia's refusal to allow them passage.

21 MARCH 1940

NIRODBARAN: I was having a discussion on Avatarhood.

SRI AUROBINDO: With whom?

NIRODBARAN: In a trance, with my own inner and outer selves. The only thing I remember is: "How can the Avatar— ?"

SRI AUROBINDO: This is the first time you remember something!

NIRODBARAN: I met X today.

SRI AUROBINDO: Ah! What does he say?

NIRODBARAN: He says he still can't do much physical work. Any strain gives him difficulty in breathing and a feeling of compression in the chest. It seems he was not feeling up to the mark and spoke of "lowered vitality" to a semi-medical friend. The friend gave him a powerful, dangerous drug. He had mistaken the sense of the words "lowered vitality".

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SRI AUROBINDO: How? He thought the vitality had been exhausted by numerous erotic actions?

NIRODBARAN: Yes — and he gave him yohimbin hydrochloride with incorrect directions. X took a huge quantity of it and hence the drastic consequences. X says, "It was by a special divine intervention that I was saved."

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.

NIRODBARAN: A letter from Y. This time Y versus Z. Z has written to Y asking some questions and Y has replied.

SRI AUROBINDO(after reading the two letters): When you are doing mental work there is of course no silence in the mind, but things can come to you when the mind is silent and then it won't be mental work. After my meeting with Lele, when I used to give speeches or write articles for the Bande Mataram, my mind was silent and things came from above. The mind didn't take any part.

CHAMPAKLAL: You seem to have written to Z that the Essays on the Gita was written in this manner.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.

SATYENDRA: In fact, the whole of the Arya was so written.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Y says that the mind can become truly silent by the touch of Supermind. Why does he bring Supermind in? The mind can become silent long before —without its touch.

NIRODBARAN: If we have to wait for Supermind in order to get the mind silent, we shall all be gone before any silence comes!

SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. I had the experience long before I knew anything about Supermind. And when the mind becomes silent, things may come from anywhere: from the Cosmic Vital or Cosmic Mind, from above — Intuition — or from within. Some people think that everything comes from the Mother or the Divine. It is a little dangerous to think, as the writer of one of these letters does, that whatever comes to us or passes through us has its source in the Mother.

NIRODBARAN: How to differentiate the sources?

SRI AUROBINDO: You can only know by experience.

SATYENDRA: Why does Y bring in Supermind to get silence? One can get it even by going a little within.

SRI AUROBINDO: That won't be silence but quietude. One can get silence even by concentration. When one is concentrated on a subject, the rest of the mind falls silent and it is only one step more

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to make the whole mind silent. Of course, to keep it permanently silent is a different matter and is very difficult. When the mind is silent one can get spiritual experiences.

NIBODBARAN: Whatever comes to the silent mind - is it necessarily correct?

SRI AUROBINDO: No. (Then with a little smile) People make two common mistakes. Whatever they hear within themselves, whatever comes to them, they say, is all from the Mother-and whatever they receive, they say, comes from above. If things were like that, it would all be very easy.

22 MARCH 1940

NIRODBARAN: Adhar Das has reviewed A's Songs from the Soul in the Calcutta Review and compared it with Saint Augustine's Confessions.

SRI AUROBINDO: It is not a very great compliment.

NIRODBARAN : About the poetry, Das writes that it is too much burdened with mysticism and philosophy.

SRI AUROBINDO: Objection to philosophy I can understand but how can one object to mysticism in poetry?

PURANI: There are many mystic poets.

NIRODBARAN: Das objects to too much of it.

SRI AUROBINDO: But the question is whether the writing is poetic or not. Maybe the book is overburdened with mysticism but if the mysticism is expressed poetically, I don't see how there can be any objection.

NIRODBARAN: Y has sent another letter. He says that the distinctions between the quiet mind, the calm mind and the silent mind are not clear.

SRI AUROBINDO (after reading the letter): A quiet mind is not necessarily free from thoughts. Thoughts can come but the mind is free from disturbance. The mental activity can go on in a quiet mind without the mind getting disturbed in any way. It is a negative state, you may say. In the silent mind also, thoughts can come but they are on the surface, while the silence remains behind, watching the thoughts without taking part in them.

NIRODBARAN: In the quiet mind thoughts can come; they can also come in the silent mind. What is the distinction then?

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SRI AUROBINDO: In the silent mind, the mind may be completely silent without allowing any thoughts to enter at all or, if they come, they remain on the surface and the activity goes on on the surface while the silence remains intact behind. You can say that what is behind is silent while the surface is quiet. Do you under- stand? You can call the quiet mind a negative state whereas the silent mind is a positive one. The silent mind is the Purusha and the quiet is the activity of energy or Prakriti in a particular way. My mind is now silent. If I allow thoughts they will come in: they will be just on the surface without touching the silence behind. Of course, if the silence is not strong enough, the activity may disturb the silence.

The calm mind too is a positive state. It is the whole stuff or substance of the mind that is silent in the silent mind. In the calm mind also activity goes on on the surface without disturbing the calmness. It is a sort of fundamental stillness. Peace of the mind is still more positive.

NIRODBARAN: All these seem then to be differences in degree.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but very great differences. I have explained all of them somewhere. The silence of the mind is the final stage.

NIRODBARAN: And the vacant mind?

SRI AUROBINDO: The vacant mind may not be necessarily Yogic. It may be an inert mind, a neutral state and in that condition it may open to anything. Peace and silence in the mind are the result of Yoga.

NIRODBARAN: Y says that he has more or less a quiet mind, not a silent one which can only be had by some descent from above.

SRI AUROBINDO: Peace and silence in the mind are either a descent from above or a welling up from within. But they do not necessarily come from Supermind. They can come from. the spiritual planes.

NIRODBARAN: Since he finds silence something very difficult to get, he says it can't be had by any effort but by a descent.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is so, but the descent is not from Supermind.

PURANI: One can have the experience of silence by experience of Sachchidananda in the mind.

SRI AUROBINDO: Of course. Didn't he have the experience?

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NIRODBARAN: I don't know. He doesn't understand how the mind in transmitting things, can be passive. He says some activity must be there.

SRI AUROBINDO: What activity?

NIRODBARAN: Thoughts, for instance; say, in writing. A descent of light or peace can come directly without going through the mind.

SRI AUROBINDO: In writing also thoughts may not pass through the mind at all. While I was writing for the Bande Mataram, they didn't pass through the mind; they either came directly to the pen and I didn't know beforehand what I was writing or they came just like that (gesture from the head downwards). Sometimes they passed through the mind which was quite passive. If the mind takes part, then the whole thing gets spoiled. In poetry, it is the activity of the mind that meddles.

NIRODBARAN: The quiet or silent mind I can make clear to myself, but not the calm mind. Perhaps it is a matter of experience?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, you have to know the stuff of the mind. Calmness has strength in it. It is the strong man who can be calm, a weak man can be quiet. The gods are calm; you can't say they are quiet.

NIRODBARAN: In occupied moments, various loose thoughts come in. They don't disturb. What is that state?

SRI AUROBINDO: That is the quiet mind. Vivekananda says that one should allow the mind to run on like that and ultimately it will by itself get tired. I don't think it is always successful.

PURANI: When I used to be disturbed, I would read The Life Divine and other books of yours. The mind would grow quiet and I would suddenly experience the mental representation of the ideas expressed.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it was the same with me when I was reading the Gita and the Upanishads in jail.

CHAMPAKLAL: People say that Krishna gave the Gita into your hand.

SRI AUROBINDO (after laughing): I think I said or wrote something like that. I didn't know that they would give a material interpretation to it.

NIRODBARAN: Y say she has tried for ten to twelve years to get silence but hasn't succeeded.

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SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know whether one can get it by trying. It is by a descent that one can get it.

NIRODBARAN: But a descent will only be occasional.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but its effects go on.

23 MARCH 1940

PURANI: Laurence Binyon says that the dragon is a symbol of water. Water is everything; it forms into clouds and comes down as rain and therefore the dragon is a symbol of the Infinite.

SRI AUROBINDO: Why "therefore"? The dragon may symbolise the Infinite by being a symbol of the sky.

PURANI: In China the Infinite is symbolised by the dragon.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, as we have Anantanag, the symbol of infinite Time. That symbolism has come from prehistoric animals like the dinosaurs.

PURANI: Binyon says that what Wordsworth has realised in poetry, China and Japan have done in art, manifesting the Spirit in Nature.

NIRODBARAN: China also?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, both have the same source of inspiration. Chinese art is greater, Japanese more subtle and perfect in detail.

PURANI: Binyon writes that they lay a strong emphasis on hues.

SRI AUROBINDO: All oriental art does that. The Japanese of course have made beauty the standard in their life. Now European civilization is spoiling everything. Outside people judge the art of the Japanese by their exports, but they export only mediocre things, saying these are good enough for barbarians. Only people who return from Japan bring genuine articles.

PURANI: Binyon also says about European religious paintings by Tintoretto and others that there is too much action in them. In a picture of heaven, for instance, one feels quite outside heaven!

SRI AUROBINDO: That is just what I recently said. Mrs. Raymond, hearing it, remarked that I knew nothing of art.

PURANI: She doesn't see anything in Indian art.

SRI AUROBINDO: She is a modernist. But Raymond is a fine artist. He has something more than modem.

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PURANI: Yes, he appreciates Indian art. But both of them like Moghul and Rajput art.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, because it has become established. They go by the authorities.

PURANI: Raymond gave up painting for architecture.

SATYENDRA: He has so many plans of the buildings he has done.

SRI AUROBINDO: He doesn't seem to be very practical. Somewhere he built a hotel which was not very comfortable to live in. The owner complained to him that it was not comfortable. And Raymond replied, "Comfortable? Comfortable? An architect is not concerned with comfort. He is concerned with beauty." (Laughter)

SATYENDRA: Modern interior decorators also have that mentality. They don't look to the comfort of the people but to their own art.

EVENING

PURANI: Two justices of Nagpur have come on a visit —one Bengali and the other Marathi perhaps. They have brought some books and are acquainted with a bit of Yoga. They say this Yoga is so new that they don't understand it.

SRI AUROBINDO (smiling): The newness is a disputed point.

PURANI: They inquired if there were any Marathis here.

SRI AUROBINDO: We have none.

NIRODBARAN: Charu Dutt won't be surprised. He says the Marathis are practical people.

SRI AUROBINDO: So Yogis are unpractical? And can a people influenced by Ramdas be of an unyogic nature?

SATYENDRA: They are said to be very provincial. They will go only to Marathi saints.

SRI AUROBINDO: That would be rather queer. Yogis are above province or country. Yogis can't think of such things.

PURANI: There has been a sudden change in the French Ministry. Reynaud has become Prime Minister in place of Daladier.

SRI AUROBINDO: This unsteadiness looks like a bad sign.

NIRODBARAN: It is said Reynaud is more efficient, has more drive.

SRI AUROBINDO : He is certainly more intelligent. In fact he is the only intelligent minister, they say.

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NIRODBARAN: And I hear that he was handicapped by the French capitalists, while Daladier was much under their influence.

SRI AUROBINDO: The French capitalists are very powerful. The Senate is backing them.

PURANI: Have you seen Leonard Blake's book on astrology and his predictions?

SRI AUROBINDO: What I have read of the summary seems to be almost the same as the French astrologer's prophecies. The Frenchman also says that there is a chance of peace in May, but because of some contrary indication it may come about only in September. After the peace there will be a Leftist influence in France and then France and England will turn communist.

PURANI (after reading a Jew extracts from Blake's book): Blake calls Hitler a devil.

SRI AUROBINDO: There lies the difference from the French man. The Frenchman calls Stalin a devil and Hitler human. One can say that Hitler is not a devil but is possessed by one.

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